Ecological Dynamics/The Contraints Led Approach

pleavindring, post: 63545, member: 29842

Does anyone else use either the ecological dynamics/constraints led approach to their training?
Unfortunately BJJ is WAY behind the times when it comes to how it is taught which will be holding the sport (and the people doing it) back massively. I have a modest understanding of these approaches to learning and would love to get a conversation going about how we can apply them to our training better as students who have less control over their training environment, to maximise our time in the gym.

Bom Abraco, post: 63550, member: 34390

Can you explain please.

Here's a couple of YouTube links that may help:

Youtube: wA2qho-lJVQ
Youtube: qVt-LBQGo9o
I would recommend listening to the Primal MMA coaching podcast especially any episode with Greg Souders.

I suppose it's essentially making the BJJ player an adaptive problem solver rather than just trying to remember the one correct step by step (these don't exist in reality due to the complexity of a sport where your opponent resists)

pleavindring, post: 63551, member: 29842

It's a lot to explain to be honest.

Here's a couple of YouTube links that may help:

Youtube: wA2qho-lJVQ
Youtube: qVt-LBQGo9o
I would recommend listening to the Primal MMA coaching podcast especially any episode with Greg Souders.

I suppose it's essentially making the BJJ player an adaptive problem solver rather than just trying to remember the one correct step by step (these don't exist in reality due to the complexity of a sport where your opponent resists)

You could for example teach someone how to pass guard by explaining that guard passing is getting your opponents legs away from their body and getting past their hips so you have control over their centre of mass. And then set up resisted games where the learner is using trial an error to figure out the ways to pass guard. This way they will learn to adapt and read the situation etc very well rather than just trying to do a specific technique that isn't very adaptable to the massive amount of responses the opponent could have.

This is only a quick example and of course you would explain the task (,guard passing) a lot better than I did just there but hopefully that makes some sense.

@@pleavindring , when I had my academy I ran these types of drills a lot and when I teach classes, it's really the main way I run them. Also if I were to open an academy again. This type of training would be a big part.

You'll see a lot of "live drills" in the phased based fundamentals stuff but in a class that would just be one aspect of it.

Also I teach my seminars in a manner where everyone learns by applying progressive resistance throughout the seminar to learn.

pleavindring, post: 63545, member: 29842

Does anyone else use either the ecological dynamics/constraints led approach to their training?
Unfortunately BJJ is WAY behind the times when it comes to how it is taught which will be holding the sport (and the people doing it) back massively. I have a modest understanding of these approaches to learning and would love to get a conversation going about how we can apply them to our training better as students who have less control over their training environment, to maximise our time in the gym.

Jason_Scully, post: 63553, member: 1

@@pleavindring , when I had my academy I ran these types of drills a lot and when I teach classes, it's really the main way I run them. Also if I were to open an academy again. This type of training would be a big part.

You'll see a lot of "live drills" in the phased based fundamentals stuff but in a class that would just be one aspect of it.

Also I teach my seminars in a manner where everyone learns by applying progressive resistance throughout the seminar to learn.

Is there any chance that down the line some more 'live drills' will be added to the GG? The ones on guard retention are excellent.

crossover, post: 63558, member: 10990

I think that Rob Biernacki’s FYJJ system is constraints led approach.

Biernacki’s stuff is amazing. That’s where I first learned about the constraints based training approach like 4 years ago. It has made a huge difference in my skill acquisition.

pleavindring, post: 63552, member: 29842

To expand on this a bit:

You could for example teach someone how to pass guard by explaining that guard passing is getting your opponents legs away from their body and getting past their hips so you have control over their centre of mass. And then set up resisted games where the learner is using trial an error to figure out the ways to pass guard. This way they will learn to adapt and read the situation etc very well rather than just trying to do a specific technique that isn't very adaptable to the massive amount of responses the opponent could have.

This is only a quick example and of course you would explain the task (,guard passing) a lot better than I did just there but hopefully that makes some sense.

pleavindring, post: 63545, member: 29842

Does anyone else use either the ecological dynamics/constraints led approach to their training?
Unfortunately BJJ is WAY behind the times when it comes to how it is taught which will be holding the sport (and the people doing it) back massively. I have a modest understanding of these approaches to learning and would love to get a conversation going about how we can apply them to our training better as students who have less control over their training environment, to maximise our time in the gym.

If you are listening to Primal MMA podcast, you know of Rob Gray and his book "How we learn to Move" and Greg's involvement in applying it to grappling.

Worlds No-Gi is coming up soon and Standard Jiu-Jitsu has 5 athlete's to watch...

I am not the person to debate or question this approach to learning, I am still "looking in to it"

pleavindring, post: 63545, member: 29842

Does anyone else use either the ecological dynamics/constraints led approach to their training?
Unfortunately BJJ is WAY behind the times when it comes to how it is taught which will be holding the sport (and the people doing it) back massively. I have a modest understanding of these approaches to learning and would love to get a conversation going about how we can apply them to our training better as students who have less control over their training environment, to maximise our time in the gym.

Pbpappy, post: 63610, member: 13504

This is an interesting take/approach to learning, but I wonder how well and how long will it take the technique collectors to adapt. It really will cause some issues with most schools who see the academy as a Teacher/Student relationship and depend on disseminating techniques and providing corrections. The Ecological Dynamic approach will be a facilitator of games and the student will really teach themselves through all live rounds, no drilling no 15 step technique, no warm ups up and down the mat.
It will take competition to accelerate the learning and acceptance in my opinion. Right now, Standard Jiu-Jitsu with Deandre and Gavin Corbe brothers along with Alex Nguyen are the athlete's to watch. All three of these athletes took gold at Black Belt No-Gi Pans this years (first time). You can go on Flo and watch this past weekend's Finishers 17 to see Deandre win the 155 title with all submissions.

If you are listening to Primal MMA podcast, you know of Rob Gray and his book "How we learn to Move" and Greg's involvement in applying it to grappling.

Worlds No-Gi is coming up soon and Standard Jiu-Jitsu has 5 athlete's to watch...

I am not the person to debate or question this approach to learning, I am still "looking in to it"

That's definitely an interesting question, how will the technique collectors adapt?
There was a guy who was a black belt I think that went to standard jiu jitsu from a technique collector gym previously and I heard Greg saying on a podcast about having to basically get him to start from scratch or something like that.
My friend opened his own club about 10 months ago and the first 4-6 months were the traditional approach 100% but then I got him into this method of training, he now exclusively trains with this 'new' method and is loving the progress and his students are enjoying it much more.

Rob Gray's book is fantastic and any of the Primal podcasts are really helpful. Do you teach/coach?

Pbpappy, post: 63655, member: 13504

What have your successes been like with the Ecological Dynamics style of learning? Do you find it challenging or easier to explore a position? I would have to suspect the learning curve is steep for the beginner vs a person with some knowledge. I am curious to hear your experiences. Does it depend on a person style of learning?

pleavindring, post: 63668, member: 29842

Thanks so much for your input!

That's definitely an interesting question, how will the technique collectors adapt?
There was a guy who was a black belt I think that went to standard jiu jitsu from a technique collector gym previously and I heard Greg saying on a podcast about having to basically get him to start from scratch or something like that.
My friend opened his own club about 10 months ago and the first 4-6 months were the traditional approach 100% but then I got him into this method of training, he now exclusively trains with this 'new' method and is loving the progress and his students are enjoying it much more.

Rob Gray's book is fantastic and any of the Primal podcasts are really helpful. Do you teach/coach?

(Edit) you can also DM @grappling_With_insanity. My grappling dummy drilling goes in the opposite direction of this style of learning, but it is fun.

Pbpappy, post: 63670, member: 13504

I am friends and have trained with Scott Sievewright from Primal MMA. I have listen to him talk about this approach to Skill Acquisition approach for the past 4 or 5 years now, and as he finds other similar thinking people his approach becomes more refined in how he runs his gym. If you go to his Instagram account you will see a packed gym. I am open minded to the approach, but I have been doing jiu-jitsu for a while and my interest is in the "How do you convince" a person who has been in the art for some time. I also understand that some of these guys at Standard have put in more hours on the mat then most 30/40/50 yr old hobbyist.

(Edit) you can also DM @grappling_With_insanity. My grappling dummy drilling goes in the opposite direction of this style of learning, but it is fun.

Thanks I'll give the Instagram a look!

I find this such an interesting topic. Thanks OP for the videos and recommendations. I’ve listened to some Primal MMA episodes but definitely going to check out the episodes you recommended.

Benny_the_jet, post: 63674, member: 22463

I find this such an interesting topic. Thanks OP for the videos and recommendations. I’ve listened to some Primal MMA episodes but definitely going to check out the episodes you recommended.

@@pleavindring and @@Benny_the_jet
You will have to keep and eye out for a new podcast coming from Primal MMA…Rob Gray who wrote the book Move will be coming out shortly

I rolled at Primal this past Wednesday and it is interesting to roll with guys who started 10 months ago, who have really embraced the that style of learning. There is little hesitation in their next move or the objective.

Pbpappy, post: 63742, member: 13504

I rolled at Primal this past Wednesday and it is interesting to roll with guys who started 10 months ago, who have really embraced the that style of learning. There is little hesitation in their next move or the objective.

Yes I do. And I'm really happy to hear that it's gaining some ground in the community. The BJJ mental models and I suck at jiu-jitsu podcast has turned me on to a few people I've been following to gain insight from. I wish more coaches would embrace studying pedagogy and how people learn.

pleavindring, post: 63778, member: 29842

That's really interesting. I would love to see how people are that have never been taught a specific technique. One question I do have is with this style of training, how do you game plan? As from what I understand you are mostly trying to perceive your environment (your opponent in this case) and adapt to what they do to complete the task. So do you not decide "I'm going to try and get to a single leg and takedown then pass with pressure passing and then look for a far side kimura" for example?

When you listen to the matches you can hear Greg calling out general directions…never - “ the Kimura or single leg is right there” and you don’t typically hear move to right or left, because their approach and action depend on the athlete’s perceptions not the coaches. The coach seems to only re-enforce general concepts.

If you have FloGrappling go to the Pans 2022 or ADCC Open and listen to there matches…you will hear Greg shouting out directions.

nwa_95, post: 63798, member: 30509

Yes I do. And I'm really happy to hear that it's gaining some ground in the community. The BJJ mental models and I suck at jiu-jitsu podcast has turned me on to a few people I've been following to gain insight from. I wish more coaches would embrace studying pedagogy and how people learn.

Do you coach at all? Or are your sessions taught in this way?

Pbpappy, post: 63835, member: 13504

I don’t believe that is the game plan you describe. I believe it is more like isolating the nearest limbs, and then establishing control of center mass, then attack limbs. If you watch Deandre, he typically pulls guard or sits, from there he gains contact through or with his feet or hands, and from there they get hands to floor and wrestle up/sweep and gain control of the upper body (center mass). Gavin (Deandre’s brother) is a tenacious leg locker.

When you listen to the matches you can hear Greg calling out general directions…never - “ the Kimura or single leg is right there” and you don’t typically hear move to right or left, because their approach and action depend on the athlete’s perceptions not the coaches. The coach seems to only re-enforce general concepts.

If you have FloGrappling go to the Pans 2022 or ADCC Open and listen to there matches…you will hear Greg shouting out directions.

I'll give some of their matches a watch and listen out for Greg! Thanks.

Do you have any tips for trying to use this training method as a student when the lessons are taught in the traditional manner? Eg, dry drills and then free sparring?

pleavindring, post: 63839, member: 29842

That's good to hear I would say as I think having the flexibility to work with what affordances the situation gives you feels much more natural (and successful) to me when I roll, rather than looking for specific techniques.

I'll give some of their matches a watch and listen out for Greg! Thanks.

Do you have any tips for trying to use this training method as a student when the lessons are taught in the traditional manner? Eg, dry drills and then free sparring?

Standard has 3 stand out black belts, but they were black belts before they went to Standard with years of traditional style learning...were they as successful? were they putting in 6 days a week with high volume training in live rolling? Standard has a blue belt, Noah, who mentioned by Greg on the podcast and you can see him at Finisher 17 ( I believe). Noah is Standard's beta tester in a sense...new to grappling, only been under Greg.

Pbpappy, post: 63840, member: 13504

You listen to Greg and Scottie talk, they have a hard and fast "No" to that question. However, I have not been converted completely and I think that there is some room/abilities to blend. My main school is Lucas Lepri Affiliate and we teach and drill techniques, situational and positional drills. I am still trying to process the information just as much as Standard and Primal are trying.

Standard has 3 stand out black belts, but they were black belts before they went to Standard with years of traditional style learning...were they as successful? were they putting in 6 days a week with high volume training in live rolling? Standard has a blue belt, Noah, who mentioned by Greg on the podcast and you can see him at Finisher 17 ( I believe). Noah is Standard's beta tester in a sense...new to grappling, only been under Greg.

How do you go about combining the approaches? Would that be for example showing a technique in a fairly broad sense and not worrying too much about the specifics, and then letting people drill that with resistance and figure it out?

Good point about those guys from Standard. Interested to see if they get more success with other students who have purely trained this way.

nwa_95, post: 63798, member: 30509

Yes I do. And I'm really happy to hear that it's gaining some ground in the community. The BJJ mental models and I suck at jiu-jitsu podcast has turned me on to a few people I've been following to gain insight from. I wish more coaches would embrace studying pedagogy and how people learn.

crossover, post: 64004, member: 10990

If it takes some students 4 years to get a black belt and some 20 years…maybe some teaching and learning methods suck?

Benny_the_jet, post: 64031, member: 22463

There's gotta be a lot of factors taken into account in that comparison... but yeah there are definitely teaching methods that suck in any discipline

I believe a major factor in it is also the people being taught. I love Lachlan Giles reverse classroom model that he uses for his students. They work on what they need to and he facilitates the progress of it. It's by far one of the best methods of quickly learning BJJ in my opinion and I would love to implement it at my gym but it relies on the students taking charge of their own learning and it's just never going to happen; most people want to be spoonfed for an hour and then trot back home without a second thought about their BJJ journey whilst off the mats.

I think the reverse classroom model is amazing in concept, but only for a full-time instructor with highly motivated students. I teach at a hobbyist gym. Everyone has full time jobs and families (as do I) and getting to class 2-3 times a week is the absolute maximum amount of time most of them can afford to spend on BJJ. Which is totally fine. Everyone has their own life situation.

Jason_Scully, post: 63553, member: 1

@@pleavindring , when I had my academy I ran these types of drills a lot and when I teach classes, it's really the main way I run them. Also if I were to open an academy again. This type of training would be a big part.

You'll see a lot of "live drills" in the phased based fundamentals stuff but in a class that would just be one aspect of it.

Also I teach my seminars in a manner where everyone learns by applying progressive resistance throughout the seminar to learn.

This is very much how Danny Maira and Nick Salles (Bolo Brothers), who have a video series here, teach in their gym Movement Art in PA.

I’ll throw this out there, if you want to learn more about Eco Dynamics from coaches who use it, join the Combat Learning Podcast Community on FB. I basically revived the community and got a bunch of people to join: Greg Souders, Scott Sievewright, Chris Paines, Kabir Bath, Priit, are all there.

Enkidu90046, post: 64682, member: 22193

I’ll throw this out there, if you want to learn more about Eco Dynamics from coaches who use it, join the Combat Learning Podcast Community on FB. I basically revived the community and got a bunch of people to join: Greg Souders, Scott Sievewright, Chris Paines, Kabir Bath, Priit, are all there.

kalel, post: 64683, member: 3023

Is the podcast available anywhere besides FB for people who aren't on the site

Enkidu90046, post: 64684, member: 22193

The podcast is available on Apple Podcasts and I’m sure others. I’m talking about the FB group associated with podcast.

Great explanation here: A Smarter Approach to Learning BJJ

latest podcast with the guy from LIMI sounds like MGA is now using EcoD.

Pbpappy, post: 63610, member: 13504

Right now, Standard Jiu-Jitsu with Deandre and Gavin Corbe brothers along with Alex Nguyen are the athlete's to watch. All three of these athletes took gold at Black Belt No-Gi Pans this years (first time). You can go on Flo and watch this past weekend's Finishers 17 to see Deandre win the 155 title with all submissions.

If you are listening to Primal MMA podcast, you know of Rob Gray and his book "How we learn to Move" and Greg's involvement in applying it to grappling.