Kimura Trap vs. Crucifix, Kimura Trap + Crucifix, Venn Diagram?
It's time for me to work on a new system of some kind. The crucifix looks great. Been finding it without even trying.
Kimura trap also looks great.
They also look very similar, but I haven't formally studied or been taught either of them.
My question is pretty broad. How are they similar? How are they different? Do they play as well together as they appear from the videos I've been watching?
2 Comments
Crucifix is much better control. It can also be one of the best submission positions if you invest the time into learning it. It has the rare advantage of offering a true dual submission threat, in the sense that you can simultaneously submit with the armbar and the rear naked choke without changing the position.
I would consider it an intermediate-to-advanced position, in my experience it is hard to teach to beginners, they lose control of it too easily. It is also not a very accessible position -- getting to the crucifix takes some creativity. Although I said it was better control than the kimura grip, it is still not strong of a control position as back control.
The other day I saw a poll asking which was better for finishing, "back control" or "crucifix" and a lot of the lightweights picked crucifix. I concur; as someone who has invested a lot of time in my crucifix, it is a way better finishing position for me when there is a significant size difference (I'm a roosterweight so I'm usually dealing with a size difference in the training room). For my game, against bigger opponents, I will often opt to transition from a trapped arm back control -- an excellent position in its own right -- to the crucifix, which hopefully gives you some idea how good of a submission position it is for me.
The kimura control is much more accessible and much easier to teach. Although mastering the kimura control can take a lifetime, it's pretty easy to teach white belts and blue belts how to use it against other beginners. The kimura grip can be obtained from almost anywhere, including guard bottom, guard top, and inferior positions like turtle, the back bodylock, or vs a single leg takedown. It also allows for MANY options to submit or upgrade to better positions (including the crucifix). It is a very versatile control.
However, kimura is a fairly "loose" control, and a quick angle change will nullify it or even give the defender an advantage (with an angle change, it can become a symmetrical position, just like 50/50 or a twister hook battle; I'm sure you've seen armbar counters and triangle counters to the kimura grip). It is also somewhat body type dependent; people with big hands and strong arms will have more control than people with small hands and weak arms.
Personally, as a roosterweight who lacks good grip strength / upper body strength, I don't feel comfortable taking full advantage of the kimura's versatility. I only use it when I'm on top of side control or north south -- I usually don't try to secure it from guard, from passing, or from inferior positions (turtle, back bodylock, single leg, etc). My main objectives are to secure one of these three positional advancements: take the back, lock in a side triangle position, or secure a giftwrap. Transitioning to the armbar position is a great classical option too, but for my game (vs bigger guys) it is less controlling compared to the other three. My main finish from the kimura is the Tarikoplata, but usually I'll look to advance position instead of going for a sub.
Dunamis, post: 63256, member: 13198
It's time for me to work on a new system of some kind. The crucifix looks great. Been finding it without even trying.
Kimura trap also looks great.
They also look very similar, but I haven't formally studied or been taught either of them.
My question is pretty broad. How are they similar? How are they different? Do they play as well together as they appear from the videos I've been watching?
I like to play crucifix a lot. You don't see it much because it's a niche position but it's one with some really fantastic options and, if details are paid attention to, can be very difficult to get out of for your opponent. I also snatch up the kimura grip from bottom more often than top to assert some kind of threat to my opponent and regain the upper hand - though when done against people who know what you're doing you really have to be careful to not have it backfire on you as they change their angles and directional force. I think this is one of the key differences, crucifix is a very offensive position and to get there you need to be dominating your opponent (or be better in scrambles than them) whereas kimura control can be snatched up defensively as well as defensively.
They also fit together very well. You'll not often see many crucifix entries that don't come from the turtle without the crucifixer being a creative grappler but the other common position you can easily achieve crucifix from is a kimura control, and then once you've secured the crucifix one way to secure their arm is to keep that kimura grip and make the two work in tandem with each other. You can also use the topside crucifix to secure more control for your kimura trap system; often if I'm on top and have established the kimura trap on my opponent's far arm I will staple their nearside arm which is easily converted to a full crucifix leg control of the arm.