To Turtle or not to Turtle

Giving up your back is just looking to be choked out. I like it when my opponent turtles to avoid giving up the pass. Typically during the roll over its is easier to get the hooks in....

I have always thought the same thing; going to turtle you risk getting choked and or giving up your back. That was until I saw how Priit Michaelson from Globe Trotters do his version of turtle and how he uses 5 postures to avoid most attacks. His turtle position is different primarily due to arm and head position. The forehead is on the ground, arms tight against chest with elbows sticking out slightly at the hips to avoid hooks getting in and hands by neck to avoid chokes or allowing opponents hands to connect. I don't necessarily like how his positions look but they seem to work. I have tried them and they do seem to work. Here is a link Youtube: nPvEfzwioKI
What do you guys think?

It depends on who I'm turtling against. I turtle a lot so I'm pretty good at getting into it safely. But now that I can't get into as tight as I used to I'm starting to get exposed.

Once in Turtle I have been either recomposing to guard, going to 4 point ie hands and feet where opponent falls off my back or doing a steam roll ending with me on top and opponent under me. Waiting in turtle too long is just waiting to be dominated.

DougPleysier, post: 64367, member: 21069

I have always thought the same thing; going to turtle you risk getting choked and or giving up your back. That was until I saw how Priit Michaelson from Globe Trotters do his version of turtle and how he uses 5 postures to avoid most attacks. His turtle position is different primarily due to arm and head position. The forehead is on the ground, arms tight against chest with elbows sticking out slightly at the hips to avoid hooks getting in and hands by neck to avoid chokes or allowing opponents hands to connect. I don't necessarily like how his positions look but they seem to work. I have tried them and they do seem to work. Here is a link Youtube: nPvEfzwioKI
What do you guys think?

Jar1987, post: 64383, member: 24864

Does being in the gi change things much for you? The neck looks a bit exposed, I'm guessing he adjusts to defend it?

DougPleysier, post: 64384, member: 21069

Wearing a uniform, sorry my spell check is acting up, provides opportunities for lapel based chokes, so more to look out for. Hands are warding off most chokes and elbows are preventing hooks. The adjustment is to go to hawking or running man which are positions on your side. I find this an interesting system developing by Priit and advocated by many of the
bjjglobetrotters. Including the two other positions baby bridge and panda the system is quite good for dealing with most attacks.
My only real concern is, if this is such a good system why isn't it being used in adcc tournaments?

Jar1987, post: 64383, member: 24864

Does being in the gi change things much for you? The neck looks a bit exposed, I'm guessing he adjusts to defend it?

To picture this imagine you've dropped something under your bed and you're trying to reach under and grab it - the further away you move your body from the edge of the bed the harder it'll be to reach the object until it's impossible. In the same way when you clamp your neck to your shoulder now the opponent has to reach around the distance of your shoulders rather than your neck, which adds about 10 or so cm. By turning and facing them you also move your shoulder away from them another few centimeters.

The last piece to the puzzle is instead of crossing your hands over your neck in an "X" fashion, Priit suggests keeping your hands on their respective sides of the neck. Like the below image. This allows you to keep your elbows tucked into your hips and avoid giving underhooks while you defend the neck. Once they put their hands in, he suggests gripping their fingers rather than their wrist at first. This shuts down the possibility of them making a grip. Then you can double up on the wrist grip and usually this is more than enough to re-guard. This video shows how to reguard from a double wrist grip.

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Note: this post had 1 file attachment(s) on the original forum that could not be carried over.

Priit is quite controversial, and a lot of people allege that his stuff didn't get used at high levels. But then, the most recent instructional from Craig Jones has a big chunk about playing a correct turtle, and honestly if you squint a bit it's exactly the same stuff as Priit's.

This year I got to meet and roll with Priit at the globe trotters Maine camp. I've been working his stuff for a few years, but even with that I was unprepared for the depth of his defensive game. It's made a huge impact on my jiu jitsu.

This is quite a controversial subject. Turning your back to defend a point-scoring movement (such as a guard pass, a takedown, or a sweep) is a legitimate strategy used in the highest levels of BJJ, especially no-gi, and has a lot of application in other sports like MMA. However, whether it makes sense for an individual hobbyist to learn these skills depends a lot on what kinds of skills they want to learn.

First, some definitions of key positions:

1. Parterre: Belly-down prone position
2. Turtle: Elbows and knees on the mat. Sometimes the forehead is on the mat.
3. Referee's position: Hands and knees on the mat.
4. Quadpod: Hands and feet on the mat.
5. Standing back bodylock: Only the feet on the mat.

For beginner grapplers (ie, <2 years of experience), I would generally advise the following:

• IBJJF and no-gi: I do not teach beginners to turn their back to defend a guard pass, sweep, or takedown. We start introducing the concept to intermediate grapplers though, ie, athletic blue belts looking to compete, etc.
• Folkstyle wrestling: It is 100% necessary to know how to defend wrestling attacks from all of of the positions mentioned above. This is true for beginners all the way up to NCAA (the most elite level you can compete in for folkstyle). FYI, Olympic wrestling is not the same -- parterre is the most important position, and the attacks and defence are different.
• MMA: It depends on the gym and coach's philosophy, but for me I think it is best to learn these skills early since four of those positions -- turtle, referee's position, quadpod, and standing back bodylock -- are foundational for more advanced MMA grappling. That being said, training is different from competition. In actual beginner-level competition, it is often best to avoid them since it's easy to get punched and choked from these positions.

• No-gi: It is common for elite grapplers to turn their back to defend takedowns, sweeps, and passes, especially under ADCC and IBJJF rules that score points. In general, most elite athletes can consistently defend from there if they are not tired. When you see people getting their backs taken (ie, points scored) or choked out, a lot of the times it's because the defender was too tired. Or there was just a big skill deficit.
• Gi: Compared to no-gi, it's less common to turn your back to defend takedowns, sweeps, and passes in the gi. First, it's much harder to turn your back because the gi gives the attacker so much better control to stop those scrambles. Second, it's a lot more dangerous; in addition to the superior control of the gi, the lapel chokes are a lot more threatening because they can slip the collar across your neck even when your chin is tucked. It's still a valid strategy, but a lot riskier than it is in no-gi.
• MMA: Turning your back to stand up is very important for intermediate and advanced MMA grappling. Yes, it is risky, but it is usually better than staying on bottom, where you are likely to lose the round and maybe take a ton of damage in the process. Yes, fighters do get KO'd and submitted when they turn their backs to stand up, but a lot of the times it's because they're tired, not because it's a fundamentally flawed strategy. In most of these cases, those guys who get KO'd or submitted trying to turn their backs to stand up probably weren't going to win the fight if they had decided to stay on their backs and "play guard" either.

But I also understand a lot of hobbyists just want to spar submission-only rounds in the gym, and don't care about wrestling, MMA, or even points-based BJJ. There are a few good reasons NOT to invest the time to learn advanced technique from these positions, including:

• Using these positions is a lot harder when the attacker is bigger. It's exhausting to carry someone's weight if they are a lot bigger than you.
• These positions are also potentially dangerous, because as you build height the movements get more explosive and there is risk of one partner (attacker or defender) falling on the other. I've coached a lot of people on these positions, and especially in the beginning there were a lot of injuries (largely ameliorated with better safety guidance, and also making sure people are paired up with a partner of approximately the same size).
• Finally, a lot of instructors have never seen this stuff before, and there's a lot of subtlety involved. So grapplers trying to learn these advanced positions may have difficulty without someone knowledgable about the technique to coach them through it.

jeiteki, post: 64443, member: 9812

This is quite a controversial subject. Turning your back to defend a point-scoring movement (such as a guard pass, a takedown, or a sweep) is a legitimate strategy used in the highest levels of BJJ, especially no-gi, and has a lot of application in other sports like MMA. However, whether it makes sense for an individual hobbyist to learn these skills depends a lot on what kinds of skills they want to learn.

First, some definitions of key positions:

1. Parterre: Belly-down prone position
2. Turtle: Elbows and knees on the mat. Sometimes the forehead is on the mat.
3. Referee's position: Hands and knees on the mat.
4. Quadpod: Hands and feet on the mat.
5. Standing back bodylock: Only the feet on the mat.

There are also transitional positions, including sitting turtle ("panda" as Priit calls it, or the sit-out position in wrestling) and one hip on the mat while your chest faces the mat (I don't have a good name for this but it's a really important position).

For beginner grapplers (ie, <2 years of experience), I would generally advise the following:

• IBJJF and no-gi: I do not teach beginners to turn their back to defend a guard pass, sweep, or takedown. We start introducing the concept to intermediate grapplers though, ie, athletic blue belts looking to compete, etc.
• Folkstyle wrestling: It is 100% necessary to know how to defend wrestling attacks from all of of the positions mentioned above. This is true for beginners all the way up to NCAA (the most elite level you can compete in for folkstyle). FYI, Olympic wrestling is not the same -- parterre is the most important position, and the attacks and defence are different.
• MMA: It depends on the gym and coach's philosophy, but for me I think it is best to learn these skills early since four of those positions -- turtle, referee's position, quadpod, and standing back bodylock -- are foundational for more advanced MMA grappling. That being said, training is different from competition. In actual beginner-level competition, it is often best to avoid them since it's easy to get punched and choked from these positions.

For advanced grapplers (ie, 5-15+ years of experience depending on your progression speed), I would say this:

• No-gi: It is common for elite grapplers to turn their back to defend takedowns, sweeps, and passes, especially under ADCC and IBJJF rules that score points. In general, most elite athletes can consistently defend from there if they are not tired. When you see people getting their backs taken (ie, points scored) or choked out, a lot of the times it's because the defender was too tired. Or there was just a big skill deficit.
• Gi: Compared to no-gi, it's less common to turn your back to defend takedowns, sweeps, and passes in the gi. First, it's much harder to turn your back because the gi gives the attacker so much better control to stop those scrambles. Second, it's a lot more dangerous; in addition to the superior control of the gi, the lapel chokes are a lot more threatening because they can slip the collar across your neck even when your chin is tucked. It's still a valid strategy, but a lot riskier than it is in no-gi.
• MMA: Turning your back to stand up is very important for intermediate and advanced MMA grappling. Yes, it is risky, but it is usually better than staying on bottom, where you are likely to lose the round and maybe take a ton of damage in the process. Yes, fighters do get KO'd and submitted when they turn their backs to stand up, but a lot of the times it's because they're tired, not because it's a fundamentally flawed strategy. In most of these cases, those guys who get KO'd or submitted trying to turn their backs to stand up probably weren't going to win the fight if they had decided to stay on their backs and "play guard" either.

At my gym, I always encourage advanced grapplers to try to get good at defending and riding these positions. They are important skills for wrestling and MMA, and there is applicability to BJJ too. Most importantly, it's fun to learn and it makes grappling more interesting, which I think is the most important reason for hobbyists to learn a new set of positions.

But I also understand a lot of hobbyists just want to spar submission-only rounds in the gym, and don't care about wrestling, MMA, or even points-based BJJ. There are a few good reasons NOT to invest the time to learn advanced technique from these positions, including:

• Using these positions is a lot harder when the attacker is bigger. It's exhausting to carry someone's weight if they are a lot bigger than you.
• These positions are also potentially dangerous, because as you build height the movements get more explosive and there is risk of one partner (attacker or defender) falling on the other. I've coached a lot of people on these positions, and especially in the beginning there were a lot of injuries (largely ameliorated with better safety guidance, and also making sure people are paired up with a partner of approximately the same size).
• Finally, a lot of instructors have never seen this stuff before, and there's a lot of subtlety involved. So grapplers trying to learn these advanced positions may have difficulty without someone knowledgable about the technique to coach them through it.

that is a very informative post
thank you Jeiteki

I'm a big fan of the turtle, I've put a lot of hours into to it. Studying Eduardo Telles, Prit, Melanson, Wim to name a few.. Key thing I've learned is MOVE, it's a not a static position, just lying in turtle doing nothing is just asking for trouble. If you move and use your weight to actively push into your opponent making them push back into you a lot of possibilities start opening up. I'd highly recommend checking out Melansons Tactical turtle and Eduardo Telles Turtle Guard revisited.

Thanks for the video suggestions, where is the telles turtle revisited?